Curse

Painbringer · Jun 28, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Honestly move on it is ok, find a new place to farm, or try something new, evolve like a monkey and use a new stick ………………. (No offence)

Old farm I would fill my inventory with stuff worth 30-50 gold each

New farm I fill it with stuff worth 50-100 gold worth of junk the extra time to fill my bags is worth it for me.

lyra_song · Jun 28, 2007, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prowlinger

You hit the nail on the head... if the drops are reduced in hero/hench large parties.... the expensive of skills and high end items has not changed.

But the drops have NOT changed for in full parties of hero/hench/people.

Loot scaling does not affect full parties AT ALL.

Get it? I've been playing with full parties of hero/hench and Im making money fine.

Quote:

Granted I am not an economics master, it is pretty logical to say that the drop rates of everything is volatile now. I have yet to play in HARD mode... therefor I am seeing reduced drops in NORMAL mode. I do have some characters I **could** go farm with just for hard mode but this isn't WHY I am playing the game right now.

You obviously know nothing about statistics either.

Quote:

I am just in the middle of Nightfall... in Vabbi... using Heroes and Hench and an occasional Guildee or two... (mobs are forcing me to fill out the party to max of 8 teammates to survive). I am even using greens for most of them and good sets of runes... I was able to make a "living" before the changes... and now I am losing money. The income ratio per hour is at least cut in half for normal mode. We know we are not going to get rich here... unless someone wants to donate 100k to me and I will just shut up...

It is like getting a cut in your paycheck by 50%. Now to make the same amount of gold per hour ratio you will have to work the night shift and it will be x10 harder at that (hence HARD mode). Don't get me wrong, I think hard mode is a great thing... but I am not there yet. I feel like I am being forced to switch to playing hard mode with old characters just so I can upgrade my current campaign NF characters who are still not even out of Vabbi yet.

Im confused. What do you keep spending your money on?????

Quote:

I do think solo farming runs should be looked at and toned down... not everyone does it but when they do... chances are the bots are doing it the most. What does not make sense is that with a party of 8 (heroes and hench) the drops rates have greatly decreased (on top of them taking their share already)... So honestly... unless you play in all human groups... it is a lose lose situation for people still not into hard mode or PUGs yet.

Youre right. That doesnt make sense. Because its NOT HAPPENING.

Quote:

Maybe some day I can reach the end of NF and Factions... being able to afford to is to be determined.

I do love GW... and plan to get GWEN... it just is very hard to play the way you want to play and still end up broke as a skunk doing so. I had to sell my Mini Bone Dragon just to make some gold a while back... hated to do it but there was no other way to make some money without tooning a new solo farmer w/m or something like that... Kinda feels like we are being forced to grind farm now just to survive... :/

Afford what? What do you keep spending your money on?????

spellsword · Jun 28, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Loot scaling does not affect full parties AT ALL.

Loot in full parties sucked to begin with.

Div · Jun 28, 2007, 04:33 PM // 16:33

I played through consulate docks mission normal mode in an 8 person group and got 2 gold items. Sucks for you. Quit whining. Sorry, but solo farming and making 20% less money is not going to kill you.

the_jos · Jun 28, 2007, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Prowlinger, your only legitimate complaint i would agree with is skills, and ive pointed out a solution many times in various threads with use of skill tokens as quest rewards.

Skill tokens as quest rewards sounds good.

A-net did implement these 'Tomes', which allow you to unlock skills.
Only problem I have with them is that they are very rare drops.
Since lootscaling one elite tome dropped for me and one or two regular ones.
In all the teams I've been with in HM, both vanquishing and HM missions, I've seen them drop only a few times.

I would agree with an increase on tome drops and perhaps the implementation of a 'primary tome', usable on all professions, but only the primary profession.
And perhaps regular tomes as drops from normal mode bosses and as rare drop from normal mobs in normal mode (much like scrolls).
Make them farmable, since there is no trader for them and you can't sell them to the merchant.
Tomes don't add new gold to the game and can therefore be excluded from loot scaling or can be dropped more often.

spellsword · Jun 28, 2007, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

I played through consulate docks mission normal mode in an 8 person group and got 2 gold items.

Selling golds is a pain and takes too much time, and in addition noone is willing to pay what the stuff is worth anymore.

Moa Bird Cultist · Jun 28, 2007, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Lyra 1 - 0 This Thread imo. The only coherent argument supporting lootscale in this entire thread, thats saying something.

Party drops are identical in quantity to what they've always been. They do not suck, it's quite easy to turn a handsome profit - tip, dont waste your money on keys or lockpicks, theyre whats known as a goldsink and you'll NEVER break even on them. Loot in full parties is pretty decent if you don't waste your money on things like this. Solo drops are better in hard mode, so complete Nightfall, stop moaning and work for what you want. Thats how I made the 60k in my storage at the moment and the hundreds of plat that must have been through my storage by now, a lot of which has been post loot scaling.

And I remember 'way back when.' You know, in the old days, it was likely when you got a gold that it wouldn't even have a damage mod on it at all, and it was possible that to get completely clean golds with no mods at all. Tell me things aren't better today when considering that...

Basically, this can be summed up as: "No matter how much people whine about it, ArenaNet will not be adding the much vaunted instant win button to Guild Wars."

Rock Crush · Jun 28, 2007, 04:48 PM // 16:48

The common answer I see is quest do quest and missions to make money back.

In party's of 8 I don't find I get money stuff then again I used to get more items. Then again maybe its just bad luck.

Now back to your answer to do quests and missions. My problem is I've done them all I have no quests or missions left in the game. I help people lots of them and hope for better drops but nothing hardly anything. But like I said this might just be bad luck so whats left farming... it takes hours to make money that way.

I find I get bored after one hour and in the past one hour was all I needed to make 1-3 k just enough to buy a skill or two that I had my eye on.

For me having to spend hour after hour farming is pointless and boring. As for helping friend although fun and I love doing it. I find I broke even after. No money left over for other things.

My money is ether slowly going down or at a stand still.

Loviatar · Jun 28, 2007, 04:52 PM // 16:52

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prowlinger

I have yet to play in HARD mode... therefor I am seeing reduced drops in NORMAL mode. I do have some characters I **could** go farm with just for hard mode but this isn't WHY I am playing the game right now.

you say you could play HM for more money but you are not playing for money but your only huge bitchwhine fest is.......I DONT GET ENOUGH MONEY.........RIGHT

Quote:

I am just in the middle of Nightfall... in Vabbi... using Heroes and Hench and an occasional Guildee or two... (mobs are forcing me to fill out the party to max of 8 teammates to survive). I am even using greens for most of them and good sets of runes...

RIGHT AGAIN GREENS AND GOOD RUNES BUT NO MONEY

Quote:

Don't get me wrong, I think hard mode is a great thing... but I am not there yet. I feel like I am being forced to switch to playing hard mode with old characters just so I can upgrade my current campaign NF characters who are still not even out of Vabbi yet.

did you know that vanity armor was meant to be worked for over an extended play period not as a basic starter show off item?

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What does not make sense is that with a party of 8 (heroes and hench) the drops rates have greatly decreased (on top of them taking their share already)...

WRONG AGAIN full party is exempt

Quote:

Maybe some day I can reach the end of NF and Factions... being able to afford to is to be determined.

what you mean is can i finish in the style i think i deserve

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Kinda feels like we are being forced to grind farm now just to survive...

no not survive but have the super high standard of living you want

Shayne Hawke · Jun 28, 2007, 04:55 PM // 16:55

I'll say the same thing I said to the last guy: Stop playing Guild Wars.

If you're one of the many people complaining about the loot scaling, you're most likely one of the people who sees Guild Wars as a game where you have to get rich and get all of the best stuff, or you aren't worth anything. And, if you aren't getting rich, you aren't having fun.

If you aren't enjoying Guild Wars just because you can't get that req. 9 Elemental Sword that you wanted, or the greens aren't coming so easily, then quit playing. There are better things you can do, but then again, you're probably not motivated to do anything else, so you just whine about it.

I personally like the loot scaling. Greens and golds mean very little to me when my ultimate goal is to get titles. Those things are just nice little gifts I can get on the side for my great efforts.

The oddest thing about this whole fiasco is that it seems like only the people who were really paying attention to their loot beforehand are whining. It seems like everyone else is fine with what they're getting. Stop being greedy.

TabascoSauce · Jun 28, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Seriously prowlinger, let me try another example.

There is a cliff up to a mesa. Some people have climbed it - dedicated a significant portion of their lives (say hundreds or thousands of hours) to learning to climb it, studying how to climb it, climbing it, wiki-ing their experiences, and looking at themselves standing on the top with extra large vanity mirrors and imagining that this was a meaningful accomplishment in the grand scheme of the universe.

It did not get them any dates with people of the opposite gender, it did not feed any poor, or cure any diseases, or really do anything meaningful in the world other than suck up their time in a vanity-filled purposeless time sink. A fun time sink, but really without even a trace of utility relevant to the real world.

So, here you come along and ask for a set of stairs set into the cliff? Or even worse, a chair lift? Something to make it easier? Cheeky.

Those who are callow and shallow only see the stairs, and ignore the fact that they can still climb the cliff the old way and feel true accomplishment. To them, the betraying fact showing their true intentions is that they do not seem to care that climbing the cliff was the true accomplishment, they only see the bling - standing on the mesa, or in the game case having lots of armors and gold/rare weaps and gold. It is not about the journey, it is all the destination. And you should have to do the same meaningless time-consuming crawl up the cliff that they did. Right? Wrong? Who knows. But they'll be damned before they agree to give you a set of stairs.

Me, it is about the journey. I think since it is all virtual stuff and everybody can have a set of primeval armor and nothing will be harmed, well heck let everyone have one then. Won't harm me, and I do not care about that anyway - you have to zoom in to the game to see it, and in the small amounts of time I have to play excepting work, family, etc I am doing something purposeful, or trying to.

How dare you ask for that shortcut and make those callow shallow destination focused people lose their achievement engine? That's like asking for stairs in the cliff - and democratizing the mesa. Uncool - just uncool.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

lyra_song · Jun 28, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

THATS IT. You guys are giving me a headache. And im here homesick..nauseated....*rubs head*

I did a quick quest. And here the result.

Character: Callisto Bites You
Quest: Stolen Eggs
From Cavalon Through Archipelagos Through Maishang Hills To Gyala Hatchery.
Quest Total Time: about 19 minutes.
NORMAL MODE
3 Heroes + 4 Henchmen

I took my time since i was a minion master, and minions are SOO slow, and i wanted to kill stuff along the way. I could have ran it, but that defeats the purpose of showing you how much money i can make in a short quest.

i started at 12:42

No money. No items.

Time is 13:01

We reach Gyala.

Talking to the merchant.

Total Drops
316 in gold
1x Jade Staff (blue)
1x Bone Charm
1x Jadeite Shard (WOOOT!! Loot scaling!!)
1x Jade Longbow
1x Hand Axe
2x Naga Skin
1x Archaic Kappa Shell

Total Money Made in about 19 minutes
626 gold + 1 jadeite shard

=======================

So I made about 700 gold (if i sold the jade) in 19 minutes, in a FULL PARTY in normal mode. And there werent many mobs in the way, this quest is so short.

What is so hard?

TabascoSauce · Jun 28, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46

I hope you get feeling better, Lyra.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

drago34 · Jun 28, 2007, 06:55 PM // 18:55

This thread is pointless, it's just another rant about how bad it is to make money with loot scaling. Oh wait that's right I forgot loot scaling is fixing the economy. You don't need to have as much gold to buy the same thing you used to since gold has more value to it... How many damn times will people have to say it before it gets across.

spellsword · Jun 28, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

The problem is that I used to as much as 5k in roughly the same time. I don't have the time to farm all day, so it took me 2 months to get my first set of 15k armor. With loot scaling in place, GW2 will be out before I can afford another one.
You might say I don't need 15k armor, which is true, but I still want it. I shouldn't have to dedicate my life to a game to be able to afford some neat stuff, especially as GW was supposed to be casual friendly. And not only that, now I have to farm for hours just to buy some freaking skills as well.

noblepaladin · Jun 28, 2007, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

But the drops have NOT changed for in full parties of hero/hench/people.

Loot scaling does not affect full parties AT ALL.

Get it? I've been playing with full parties of hero/hench and Im making money fine.

While drops have not changed for full parties, the economy has changed for everybody. The new economy affects some people positively and some people negatively. I'm not going to take sides on whether the current loot scaling is good or bad, but I'll just point out some of the effects on the economy.

Because it is harder to get gold now, the value of gold obviously goes up (ex: Ecto used to cost 10k, now it costs 5k. The same is true for most good such as dyes, superior runes, etc). This seems to be a "buff" for the so called "casual" player who only plays in groups. Before, if he didn't solo farm or trade with other players, it was near impossible for him to afford a 35k superior vigor, now he can buy it for about 13k. The cost of the rarer skinned weapon drops have also gone down. The cost of armors and skills seems to be the same for this "casual" player (set at 1k per skill, 1k per armor piece, 15k per ascended armor piece, etc). However, this is not exactly the case, because the casual player does trade with hardcore players, directly or indirectly through the NPC traders.

ANet's goals seems to be to slow down bots and to decrease the margin of "income" between casual players and farmers. While the second goal of making the margin smaller has succeeded (loot scaling slowed down solo farmers a lot), there are other negative effects to the casual player. Before a casual player can still participate in the high end market. For example, if a casual player happens to run into a superior Fire, Swordsmanship, Monk, or Death rune, he makes several thousand gold. If he happens to get a black/white dye, he makes several thousand gold. Or an expensive armor inscription that he does not need. Also, materials in general were more expensive (fueled buy rich people buying materials for high end armor or multiple armor sets). Or if a casual player happened to get a good upgrade component for a weapon. Most of the time, when you come across a "good" item, it is an item that you cannot use. In the past it was possible to trade it to the trader or other players to make a few thousand gold, which is enough for a few armor pieces or several skills. This links the casual player economy with the hardcore economy. Unless you are very lucky, I'm pretty sure that all casual players have come across desirable runes that they can't use, dyes, desirable upgrades, materials, etc which they can trade.

As a simple example to demonstrate my point: I can still sell a Healing rune and use the money to buy a Fire rune for my elementalist (assuming they have always cost about the same at the trader), however, I cannot sell the healing rune to buy 3 skills any more, I can only buy 1 now. The same effect is true for armor pieces and all the items that have their prices set in stone: armor, skills, merchant goods, etc. The hardcore economy has changed a lot due to loot scaling, and now hardcore players are less willing to pay high prices for items like runes, dyes, etc, items that casual players can. Since less gold is generated, gold is worth a lot more now. However, skills and armor cost the exact same number of gold, despite the fact that gold is worth more now (so skills and armor in effect, cost more). So casual players actually get skills and armor at a slower rate now (however, they can buy greens, rare skins, and runes easier now).

Granamyr · Jun 28, 2007, 08:21 PM // 20:21

So essentially the hardcore market is more accessible to the casual player but it wasn't something they cared about in the first place. Meanwhile, the casual market has remained constant but casual players have less gold. So at the end of the day, the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor? This is a good thing?

Loot scaling was just wrong....mainly because it wasn't necessary. A good secondary argument would be that it doesn't fit within the realm of logic or the lore of the game. 1 person doing the work of 8 people only gets 1/8 of the drops? Someone explain that in the realm of logic. How about monsters only drop their item 1/8 of the time if just one person killed them? Explain that in the realm of this game's story. But that's not even the main reason why it's wrong....

There was no good reason to scale loot down. Bots!? That's crazy. Bots have existed since the release date and will never be eliminated. Should the masses be punished because of the few? Should your taxes be increased because someone else robbed a bank? Bots are a convenient excuse for any problem (real or imaginary) in Guild Wars and allows ANet free reign to institute just awful "updates". Would any of us know if what Gaile says is true about all the accounts being banned? NO! However any of us can go to Bergen Hot Springs and see the endless parade of bots. That leads me to believe we've all been punished for nothing!!!

Who does loot scaling help? How is anyone benefited because either they or someone else is getting less? Could the Hard Mode update have been done without loot scaling? Of course! Would everyone be happy? Yeah, pretty much. So why make people mad in the name of eliminating bots (which can't be done) when you don't have to? It was just wrong.

Loviatar · Jun 28, 2007, 09:08 PM // 21:08

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granamyr

Loot scaling was just wrong....mainly because it wasn't necessary.

Who does loot scaling help? How is anyone benefited because either they or someone else is getting less? Could the Hard Mode update have been done without loot scaling? Of course! Would everyone be happy? Yeah, pretty much.

here is your answer and it should have been done a year and a half ago as this interview is more than a year and a half old.

note who is quoted and it is not Gaile

Quote:

Mike O'Brien, head of the Design Team

Quote:

There are three ways that certain players earn more gold than the average. The first and most obvious way is that, because everyone plays the game differently, some players are able to find unusually profitable areas to hunt in, or tricky strategies for killing a lot of monsters quickly. The search for the most effective way to play can be a fun part of the game for everyone -- we all like to see how well our characters can do, and whether we can tweak our characters to be better than they were previously -- and so we at ArenaNet don’t consider this a problem unless it’s extreme. Although a very knowledgeable or tricky player may be able to earn gold twice as fast as the average, this tends not to create a significant problem, because prices for items in the player-driven economy will still stay at levels where normal players can afford them. But sometimes differences in the distribution of wealth can be extreme; a group of players can find ways to earn gold ten times as fast as the average player. In this case, prices can rise to a level where normal players can’t afford to trade for items anymore. Then we have a problem, and we need to adjust the game to bring wealth distribution back into normal ranges. We constantly monitor the game, so we know when a certain place or technique is being heavily exploited. When an issue like this becomes too severe, we make tweaks as necessary to bring things back in line.

Zeek Aran · Jun 28, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

...Prowlinger, it took you an hour to do all that in post #51? That's sad. Post #56 mirrors my earnings.

lyra_song · Jun 28, 2007, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by spellsword

You might say I don't need 15k armor, which is true, but I still want it. I shouldn't have to dedicate my life to a game to be able to afford some neat stuff, especially as GW was supposed to be casual friendly. And not only that, now I have to farm for hours just to buy some freaking skills as well.

spellsword 15k armor and casual dont really fit together.

Hell the moment you start posting on a fan forum, you crossed the line of a casual player.

Gw is more casual friendly than ever. Prices are low, Questing with full parties makes more money than farming. Its nice.

If you farmed heavily before, everything seems more expensive now. But casual players wouldnt notice a change except for the positive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by noblepaladin

Since less gold is generated, gold is worth a lot more now. However, skills and armor cost the exact same number of gold, despite the fact that gold is worth more now (so skills and armor in effect, cost more). So casual players actually get skills and armor at a slower rate now (however, they can buy greens, rare skins, and runes easier now).

But this is less gold through trading. Money rate is the same for full parties of 8.

Armor and skill costs stay the same. But the rate of getting money for casual players is also the same.

Its farmers who have to work harder now. I used to be able to make 100k in a day's worth of farming. I cant do that anymore. If i farm ecto, i dont make enough money to cover the entrance fee, especially if no ectos drop.

Nowadays when i farm, im farming for items since loot scaling kills your money drops. I dont sell those items. I farm them for my use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granamyr

So essentially the hardcore market is more accessible to the casual player but it wasn't something they cared about in the first place. Meanwhile, the casual market has remained constant but casual players have less gold. So at the end of the day, the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor? This is a good thing?

The rich have to work harder to make money. The casual player just has to keep doing what they doing. But now, things are cheaper.

Quote:

Loot scaling was just wrong....mainly because it wasn't necessary. A good secondary argument would be that it doesn't fit within the realm of logic or the lore of the game. 1 person doing the work of 8 people only gets 1/8 of the drops? Someone explain that in the realm of logic. How about monsters only drop their item 1/8 of the time if just one person killed them? Explain that in the realm of this game's story. But that's not even the main reason why it's wrong....

Judging from the effects of loot scaling, it looks like it was completely neccessary. Its significantly lowered prices of items that should be affordable to players in the first place.

Logic of the game? Where do all your arrows come from? Why is the Stone summit boss an ele when you fight him, but a warrior when he kills Rurik? Why dont insignias stack? How do NPCs stay alive in combat areas? Why does everyone hate the Salving Cactus?

Quote:

There was no good reason to scale loot down. Bots!? That's crazy. Bots have existed since the release date and will never be eliminated. Should the masses be punished because of the few? Should your taxes be increased because someone else robbed a bank? Bots are a convenient excuse for any problem (real or imaginary) in Guild Wars and allows ANet free reign to institute just awful "updates". Would any of us know if what Gaile says is true about all the accounts being banned? NO! However any of us can go to Bergen Hot Springs and see the endless parade of bots. That leads me to believe we've all been punished for nothing!!!

Anet has free reign over EVERYTHING in the game to begin with. They could turn all characters into chickens tommorow and thats their right to.

While i do agree that bots can never be eliminated, loot scaling forces them to work more for the same amount of gold. This drive the REAL WORLD cost of gold up. It cuts their profits.

Meanwhile, human players can make money through partying. GG.

Quote:

Who does loot scaling help? How is anyone benefited because either they or someone else is getting less? Could the Hard Mode update have been done without loot scaling? Of course! Would everyone be happy? Yeah, pretty much. So why make people mad in the name of eliminating bots (which can't be done) when you don't have to? It was just wrong.

Lootscaling sure helps me. I can buy stuff for way less. The costs of ecto has plummeted, so that makes me happy too.

I can no longer make money through farming heavily. But i can still get money through partying.

It was annoying at first, but now that i see the benefits. ^_^